Should 4* characters outclass 3* characters?

babinro
babinro Posts: 771 Critical Contributor
edited March 2015 in MPQ General Discussion
Poll Clarification:

Should 4* tier characters completely outclass that bulk of 3* characters by design?

We have a game where people expect 2*'s to be in another league than 1*'s.
3* are in another league to the vast majority of 2*'s (save for maybe Ares and OBW as outliers).

Should 4* follow this trend?

One could argue that only X-Force and maybe TGT feel truly 4*. Should these characters form the baseline power of what we expect from a 4* as the field of characters grow?

******************************************************************
My answer:

This poll was inspired by my recent thread 'we are so close to a balanced endgame' where I clearly viewed the 4* tier as something that should be 'reasonably' in line with 3*. I've always done this by nature and I'm not entirely sure why. I've been using 3*'s for so long it just felt right that this should be the established power level of the game.

The mixed response has been interesting and accurately points out that some people view things differently. They feel like 4* should be it's own tier and that characters like Elektra, Star-Lord, IW, and Fury should all receive significant buffs at some point down the road to reflect their tier.

I can't say these people are wrong. It makes perfect sense when you consider the overall game design up to this point. As such, I'm personally torn on what we should expect from 4* characters. Consider my vote undecided thanks to the responses of that thread.

Looking forward to see what the masses think!
Failed to load the poll.
«1

Comments

  • I voted yes.

    Now by how much they outclass the 3* is another topic of conversation, but they should be better.
  • 100% yes. As wallace says, by how much I am not sure, but they should clearly be better than 3*, much like most 3* are better than 2* etc.
  • JVReal
    JVReal Posts: 1,884 Chairperson of the Boards
    They should be better, thus their rarity, but they should also stay rare. That is why they are 4*. Not everyone should have one. You should come across them rarely in PVP, and that to me is the test of rarity.

    When people hit the PVP wall of 4Thor and Xforce, that's not rare in my book when everyone and their brother has one.
  • They are harder to get and use more in game resources to max out. From a "how games work" point of view, anything that requires more resources and effort to get needs to give you a pay off when you get it.

    The idea that 4* heroes should be similar to 3* heroes in mpq would be a bit like saying a super unit in an rts should be nothing more than a reskin of an earlier unit.

    Also, from a progression point of view it would do the game no good at all to make it so that you never gain much if anything as soon as you max 2 decent 3* heroes. By having 4*s substantially better you give ppl something to work towards.
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
    They should. That said, there is certainly a problem. I'd just say it was a problem with matchmaking. How many times should I, as a player with ZERO maxed out 3 stars be matched against teams using two or more characters at 100 or more levels beyond mine? I'd say it should not ever happen, but at about 400 points on a PvP, it becomes the majority of what I see.

    Possible solution: Direct correlation between progression rewards and teams faced. Don't start matching 3 stars with 4 until they hit the 4 star progression reward. Don't match 2 star teams with 3star until they get the 3 star progression reward.

    I know this goes against their goal of having whales pay to max 4 stars. But, the pay to win aspect is all to clear with the Xforce wall. This would at least give a path to advancement and make it more about fair challenges.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    If they don't, why would anyone want to invest all that ISO into them?
  • The answer is already self-evident...4*....3*...why should it not outclass it? Because haters gonna hate? The day they decide "balance" the game and bring all the covers hovering around a middle ground of 3*s is the day you would count me out quite honestly. Why the heck would I spend all this time trying to win rewards that are similar to what everyone will have in power already? Because it's not fair? If I cant play im taking my ball too.
  • Chirus
    Chirus Posts: 191 Tile Toppler
    I think one stars should outclass four stars...but that option was not there. I'd vote for 1/2 stars coutclassing 5 stars, but that's not in the game yet.
  • Doc L
    Doc L Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
    I think that the basic answer is straight-forward - yes, they should. 2* eclipse 1*, 3* (for the most part) eclipse 2*, why would 4* not be superior to 3*? The bigger question as mention before, is by how much? And perhaps as also suggested, should people entrenched in 3* level *have* to fight against 4* covers to earn their own 4* covers?

    Maybe if some (say 1/3) of the season pvp were blocked into sets where you could only use 2*, 3* or 4* (with better rewards at each level above), and entry was only allowed into one group (you pick prior to the pvp, like with a shard), then this would stop people hating the idea of 'death bracket' as much (as it would only be in say 3 from 10 season pvp, I forget the exact numbers in the season), and all those below a small chance to improve things a few times a month.
  • konannfriends
    konannfriends Posts: 246 Tile Toppler
    Well if that is in fact the case and you people who want 4* to completely dominate 3* then there has to be a change to PvP Because 3* users who have yo fight "real" 4 stars at there max level are at a huge disadvantage.

    If 4* are going to just outright crush 3* then I should never have to fight a team with any 4* over level 210 until I get a 4* of my own.
  • The answer, I think, is a resounding "yes."

    The problem, though, is that this game is almost entirely competition-based, and as such the sense of natural progression you would enjoy in any other RPG or quasi-RPG is kind of skewed. If the game encourages progression, then parts of it are unavailable to some players and they have to wait until they're ready. If the game aims for fair play and competition, then having very real divisions between tiers of characters feels distinctly unfair.

    If the game had more permanent, non-competitive PVE and clear routes to progression at all levels, then this poll and this discussion wouldn't even seem necessary. But since we've historically been forced to squabble with each other constantly for all available in-game resources (regardless of their available game mode), we feel inclined to want an equal shot. The Gauntlet and Deadpool's dailies are a good start. A few more story events and a clear route to 4* ownership outside of PvP would go a long way toward easing the pain of the inevitable X-Force/Thoress wall that every 3* roster gets mashed up against.
  • Chirus
    Chirus Posts: 191 Tile Toppler
    Well if that is in fact the case and you people who want 4* to completely dominate 3* then there has to be a change to PvP Because 3* users who have yo fight "real" 4 stars at there max level are at a huge disadvantage.

    If 4* are going to just outright crush 3* then I should never have to fight a team with any 4* over level 210 until I get a 4* of my own.

    The question isn't should 4 stars be unbeatable by 3 stars. It's should they be better? There are more than enough people who reach 1k points without the aid of a 4 star (thus implying they can also take on max 4 star rosters since this is almost all you see at that point range). It's harder, but it can be done. Also as it was stated by many others so far, how much better they should be than 3 stars is under much heated debate, but that's not the question that's being asked here.
  • konannfriends
    konannfriends Posts: 246 Tile Toppler
    Chirus wrote:
    Well if that is in fact the case and you people who want 4* to completely dominate 3* then there has to be a change to PvP Because 3* users who have yo fight "real" 4 stars at there max level are at a huge disadvantage.

    If 4* are going to just outright crush 3* then I should never have to fight a team with any 4* over level 210 until I get a 4* of my own.

    The question isn't should 4 stars be unbeatable by 3 stars. It's should they be better? There are more than enough people who reach 1k points without the aid of a 4 star (thus implying they can also take on max 4 star rosters since this is almost all you see at that point range). It's harder, but it can be done. Also as it was stated by many others so far, how much better they should be than 3 stars is under much heated debate, but that's not the question that's being asked here.

    Well in a game like this. The definition of better should be the fact that they have huge amount more health than a 3* in there health category. And there powers with be more damaging than a 3* with the same power.

    Its seems though that this community doesn't care about more health , stronger hit points, stronger powers. They just want the most op thing they can get.

    Just because its a 4* doesn't mean it must have a "get xforce, or xforce gets you" power. it should just simply mean they can be leveled higher.
  • babinro
    babinro Posts: 771 Critical Contributor
    I'm concerned that I've poorly expressed myself in this poll.

    Think of your chances of winning when using Juggs/Venom/Modern black widow vs an enemy OBW/Ares/Classic Storm. This is outclassing. Characters like Lazy Thor vs ** Thor also feel like outclassing.

    I understand that 4*'s are supposed to be better than 3*'s.
    I'm trying to get a feel of if they should completely outclass 3*s.

    If the polls are any indication then the answer is clearly yes.

    Should we be a lot more upset that the 4* field looks so terrible then?
    You'd think that Fury would represent the absolute bare minimum of what makes an acceptable 4* and yet newer characters like Elektra and StarLord are vastly inferior.

    I'll be interested to see if people cry foul the next time we actually do get a 4* character who feels worthy of that rarity by being on par or superior to X-Force/TGT.
  • Trisul
    Trisul Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    babinro wrote:
    Should we be a lot more upset that the 4* field looks so terrible then?
    This seems to be what some veterans (especially NP) are suggesting. Buff the 4* tier to actually feel like a separate tier.
  • Arondite
    Arondite Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Of course the answer is yes.
  • Spiritclaw
    Spiritclaw Posts: 397 Mover and Shaker
    And so, the moral of the story: Buff Invisible Woman again?
  • konannfriends
    konannfriends Posts: 246 Tile Toppler
    Spiritclaw wrote:
    And so, the moral of the story: Buff Invisible Woman again?
    I want her buffed but not til I have her fully covered. icon_lol.gif

    But yeah she needs a small buff to her blue. It should cost 5 ap like op iron fist. Or either make it a passive
  • Give her some sort of stun reminiscent of Spiderman (but less crazy), give her an AP collector that doesn't end her turn, and change her yellow to a passive that just flat out makes her untargetable. Let's make a support 4* who's worthy of the role.
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    I've often said this elsewhere: Max 4* teams should constantly beat any max 3* team. 94's -can- occasionally beat 166's - but they should have to boost heavily, and they probably should have almost as many defensive losses as wins against the top teams. And they should expect immediate retribution attack. That's how it should be with 4*: they should win the vast majority of the time, they should by mere HP/tile match strength be able to take lower teams.

    166 is 56% higher than 94, 270 is 64% higher than 166. 4*'s should be even better than 3*'s than 3*'s over 2*'s!

    This from someone with one 4 with more than 7 covers. I hope to get to 4* land someday (assuming they drop the covers a bit faster than one per season when giving out 4*'s one every other season....), and just like when I reached 3* land and I have no fear of 2*'s, when I'm in 4* land I should be able to take 3* matchups as an "easy" matchup, and not worry about retribution.

    The 4hor/Xforce don't need Nerf: the other 4*'s need massive Buffs!