True Healing Discussion (Live 6/25)

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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby IceIX » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:54 pm

Spoit wrote:Is there any plans to change any of the other systems to accommodate these? Or is the 8 hours of downtime for 3*s working as intended?

We both plan to check in on the downtime for characters as you say and also monitor the healing values for the characters that offer Temporary Healing as well. The former would probably have changes made before the latter, and we actually have some temp values for healing timers that we've got in mind for play patterns. Whether that's rolled out with this change or not is a different matter.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby gamar » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:55 pm

Ghast wrote:
gamar wrote:
Ghast wrote:So when someone attacks me with low true health, do I retaliate against a team with full health or a team with "true health."

Also, what about defense teams? Right now teams that you use to retreat or lose a match become your defensive team at full health. This change means that we still get to fight Lazy Thor/Lazy Daken/ Sentry every match because people can just take their 1 health point characters in for a quick retreat if that is the case.


When did this happen again? For a long time now, you've had to actually win a battle for your team to be put in as the defensive team.


At the exact time the greyouts began. Losses also now show up as retaliation nodes.

Yeah, I knew about the retal nodes, but I didn't think that your "default" team reverted to the loser team too. Dang.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Vairelome » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:56 pm

IceIX wrote:One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.


Alternatively, tanking and prologue healing is something that players do in order to manage the play schedule they want to have, rather than the schedule you think they should have.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Chimaera » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:56 pm

IceIX wrote:One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.


You do understand people who Prologue heal do so because they have to. What you are doing is removing their ability to play. Just like tanking allowed people to not fight oppressive games and allow people to progress, now that is severely messed up. So they are soft locked into playing teams out of their league. I don't want to fight only maxed teams, its not fun, sustainable or even worth my time. So how do you propose for people to play if they cant heal?

People don't heal because they want to, they heal because its required.

Even though D3 will refuse to do this I will restate it again for probably the 10th time. Let covers fully regenerate all health after every battle, and have health packs revive down characters. That will allow for extended play and only punish people who lose covers in a fight.

If you want people to play the game a lot, you are going about it the wrong way, if you don't want people to play, keep it up.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Ben Grimm » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:56 pm

Risk taking is also going to be dead in the water as a result of this. Tanking is going to become even more common, because no one is going to want to risk taking even one hit.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Rager » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:57 pm

Do you want to lose players? Because that's how you lose players...
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby IceIX » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:57 pm

ZenBrillig wrote:Another question - in most systems that I've seen with this 'temporary HP' mechanism (which admittedly is mainly MMORPGs and tabletops), you can exceed a character's max HP. Will that be the case here?

The mechanics are there for abilities to overcharge health, yes. With these particular abilities - Spider-Man, Black Widow, and She-Hulk, no. It wouldn't make sense for a breather from combat to put you at 110% health.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Spoit » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:57 pm

Ben Grimm wrote:
IceIX wrote:What we intend, and continue to drill in on is that we want players to have a broad mix of characters instead of a Top 3 that is their sole team to play with. In Versus this is a bit rougher of a prospect as players that battle have their last winning team placed on defense. So it's not always the best idea to fight with a less powerful defensive team in order to make up more points. That's something that we're always thinking about. We've discussed allowing players to set a defensive team, but with many other games out with similar versus situations this results in a very precise meta-game where an extremely large percentage of the user base chooses the same defenders. That's not a very fun time for most players..


Ice, I get what you're saying here, but this isn't a good way to do it. I say that as someone with a VERY broad roster - I level my top people together, and that's currently 17 people, all 106th or 107th level, plus six maxed 2*s, and 3 more 3*s at 89 or 102 (plus 2 more getting leveled there). And I try to use everybody.

But what this is going to do is just reward people who pay for health packs, either legitimately or illegitimately. An we'll probably see more cheaters. If you want to reward using a diverse roster, REWARD USING A DIVERSE ROSTER. Do something direct, like bonuses for diversity or penalties for lack of it. Don't go about it sideways; this simply won't work. It will make the game pay to win, and people will still be using the same five combinations, except that the top of the charts will be nothing but whales and cheaters, and Patch and Daken will be the new power combo. Otherwise, it'll be exactly the same.

THIS.

Basically, see the same exact arguments about the skip tax. A carrot is a hell of a lot more effective than the stick.

(And like askani said, this is actually just promoting people to diversify less, using just laken and/or patch)
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Narkon » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:58 pm

IceIX wrote:One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.

You know, there was a much simpler solution. You could just lock out of the prologue heroes that heal. Just like that we would have no more Prologue healing. I think the intent behind this change is obvious to everyone. It's to promote healing pack sales.

IceIX wrote:However, in Events, we continually buff different characters, and outside of Heroics, still allow for characters to be used that aren't buffed. What we want players to do is to play with the breadth of their roster instead of using Spider-Man or Black Widow as necessary crutches and only building 3 other characters. This change is intended to result in exactly this as players see that they can't just rely on in-battle healing and look for other ways besides spending Health Packs to continue playing. We want you to keep playing on your own schedule. We want you to play with multiple characters. Doing so keeps players on their toes and making them think of character combinations that they wouldn't otherwise go with if they weren't forced out of their single set of heroes.

If this is what you want, then maybe you should have nerfed Spiderman and Magneto 5 months ago. Also, it would be useful if all heroes were balanced, so putting more effort in giving heroes that are actually useful would help in that front. Forcing players to play with their entire roster is not the same as players choosing to use various teams. If I am forced to play with a Bagman/Bullseye/Yelena team, then I'd rather not play at all and shield since playing would result in massive loses for my score.
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Last edited by Narkon on Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Phantron » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:59 pm

IceIX wrote:
ZenBrillig wrote:Another question - in most systems that I've seen with this 'temporary HP' mechanism (which admittedly is mainly MMORPGs and tabletops), you can exceed a character's max HP. Will that be the case here?

The mechanics are there for abilities to overcharge health, yes. With these particular abilities - Spider-Man, Black Widow, and She-Hulk, no. It wouldn't make sense for a breather from combat to put you at 110% health.


Not if iso-8 powered bandages are involved!
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby MrDogfather » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:00 pm

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby gamar » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:01 pm

Chimaera wrote:
IceIX wrote:One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.


You do understand people who Prologue heal do so because they have to. What you are doing is removing their ability to play. Just like tanking allowed people to not fight oppressive games and allow people to progress, now that is severely messed up. So they are soft locked into playing teams out of their league. I don't want to fight only maxed teams, its not fun, sustainable or even worth my time. So how do you propose for people to play if they cant heal?

People don't heal because they want to, they heal because its required.

Even though D3 will refuse to do this I will restate it again for probably the 10th time. Let covers fully regenerate all health after every battle, and have health packs revive down characters. That will allow for extended play and only punish people who lose covers in a fight.

Ehh, that would just make Hulk an offensive machine

I could see this change working out all right IF max health packs was doubled. If you're spending more than 10 health packs in a push, I'd feel more comfortable telling you pay up or take a break :lol:
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby akboyce » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:02 pm

Spider Man nerfs made his stun VERY ineffective.

This change means he literately can not heal teams.

Is he now PURELY defense tile man or will these changes result in him being given some other role?

Surely this change at least warrants a cost reduction?

Slightly related: Will this change result in increased sell back prices for Spider Man and OBW? I held on to Spider Man last time.... After this? I am starting to regret it....
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Droc76 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:04 pm

IceIX wrote:
What we intend, and continue to drill in on is that we want players to have a broad mix of characters instead of a Top 3 that is their sole team to play with. In Versus this is a bit rougher of a prospect as players that battle have their last winning team placed on defense. So it's not always the best idea to fight with a less powerful defensive team in order to make up more points. That's something that we're always thinking about. We've discussed allowing players to set a defensive team, but with many other games out with similar versus situations this results in a very precise meta-game where an extremely large percentage of the user base chooses the same defenders. That's not a very fun time for most players..



You guys will never have a "broad mix" of characters. In any pvp like in World of Warcraft for example there is a "flavor of the month". As long as I have played MPQ there has be a top 3 maybe 4 characters you played with that were dominate at the time. All you can do is nerf bat everything once its on top.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Chimaera » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:04 pm

gamar wrote:
Chimaera wrote:
IceIX wrote:One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.


You do understand people who Prologue heal do so because they have to. What you are doing is removing their ability to play. Just like tanking allowed people to not fight oppressive games and allow people to progress, now that is severely messed up. So they are soft locked into playing teams out of their league. I don't want to fight only maxed teams, its not fun, sustainable or even worth my time. So how do you propose for people to play if they cant heal?

People don't heal because they want to, they heal because its required.

Even though D3 will refuse to do this I will restate it again for probably the 10th time. Let covers fully regenerate all health after every battle, and have health packs revive down characters. That will allow for extended play and only punish people who lose covers in a fight.

Ehh, that would just make Hulk an offensive machine

I could see this change working out all right IF max health packs was doubled. If you're spending more than 10 health packs in a push, I'd feel more comfortable telling you pay up or take a break :lol:


More powerful than Sentry? Hulk is only good because of the time it takes for the opponent to kill him in the endgame pvp tiers, which is why he is run. The point is you can now run him and use him for what he was made for. Right now he is only used for hopping and warming the bench.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby ZenBrillig » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:05 pm

Ben Grimm wrote:
But what this is going to do is just reward people who pay for health packs, either legitimately or illegitimately. An we'll probably see more cheaters. If you want to reward using a diverse roster, REWARD USING A DIVERSE ROSTER. Do something direct, like bonuses for diversity or penalties for lack of it. Don't go about it sideways; this simply won't work. It will make the game pay to win, and people will still be using the same five combinations, except that the top of the charts will be nothing but whales and cheaters, and Patch and Daken will be the new power combo. Otherwise, it'll be exactly the same.


Side note: I have always wanted to see a developer implement negative feedback loops for powers, i.e., the more something gets used the weaker it gets. Imagine if every time a power got used its cost went up a tiny bit and the strength down a tiny bit, and at the same time every other power's cost went down an even tinier bit and the strength up. In theory such a system, when implemented correctly, would be self-balancing.

The biggest downside is that the players would have to be accustomed to not being given fixed numbers for everything because they are always in flux.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Pjoe0211 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:05 pm

you guys have made alot of changes that have benefited the new players and players trying to make the 2*-3* jump, but this is not one, I am on day 95 and feel i have a very well developed roster for how long i have been playing, I havent done prologue healing since like day 30ish.

I rely on my OBW healing so much its not even funny, like just being able to beat the other 2* max teams repeatedly you are taking damage. If your goal is to stifle the crap outta your 2* players because they were progressing too quickly, good job. If not, you are making a big mistake. I can get top 10 with my team now in most pvps if i use like 2-4 shields. Now I am worried how long my 3* transition will take. I was so close too, with like 11 three*s with at least 7 covers(2 with 11 covers).

I really feel if you just wanted more variety in teams at teh 2* level you could have added like 2 more 2* healers and then there would be more compositions of teams maybe. I am not a fan of what this will do to the game tho. will have much shorter play sessions and will have to play more often and get burnt out and missout on rewards.

Also what are you talking about with sunder, its a great finishing move, the only reason its not used more to end a match is cause people want to heal the damage before the battle ends, 2k damage for 10 yellow ap is solid at 2* level
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Emeryt » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:05 pm

You know how greed works?

You don't plan ahead in order to earn small amounts of money, which make You a millionaire in 10-20years.

No, You squeeze Your clients so much to have more and more RIGHT NOW.

And You end up with much less money and no clients. No clients mean no revenue.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby IceIX » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:06 pm

Narkon wrote:
IceIX wrote:One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.

You know, there was a much simpler solution. You could just lock out of the prologue heroes that heal. Just like that we would have no more Prologue healing. I think the intent behing this change is obvious to everyone. It's to promote healing pack sales.
Absolutely not the case. I can definitely understand that the intent is that we're making this change to increase revenue through Health Packs. That's not the case. We do think that some players will buy a couple more Packs off the back of this change for a couple days after it. This is the case with any change, such as a buff to an ability for a character. Users then go out and spend some Hero Points on respeccing. But we don't buff or nerf an ability because we want it to bring in revenue. We do it because we believe it will be in the best long term benefit for the game and for the users.

As for locking out True Healers, that also means that any future characters that would heal would also be locked out. Which would be a growing roster as our number of characters expand. As well, It would be pretty horrible for a player to pull a Spider-Man as a brand new player and be told that they can't use them because of a gameplay method they didn't even know exists is there. It's an interesting suggestion, but it doesn't pan out very well across the larger userbase that hasn't already digested more advanced gameplay concepts.
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Re: Upcoming Feature: True Healing Discussion

Postby Linkster79 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:06 pm

akboyce wrote:
Slightly related: Will this change result in increased sell back prices for Spider Man and OBW? I held on to Spider Man last time.... After this? I am starting to regret it....


I held on to not deleting the app last time.... After this? I am starting to regret it....
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